please do something to improve gift and trade

Discussion in 'Player Suggestions' started by Lea2191, Mar 22, 2020.

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  1. Lea2191

    Lea2191 Padavan

    1. There needs to be something that tells how many of something is being offered. Sometimes I take something off my field thinking I want to make a trade only to realize the person wants 2 of something. Also, if I make a legitimate trade offer like 4 pink rabbits for a Howie, no one can see the offer is for 4. This could be easily fixed.

    2. This isn't going to be popular but I think you need to do it. Stop refunding trade coupons when the trade does not go through. I search for things like neon or pink stalls, or something I am interested in, but I can't go through all the trade because it is jam packed with totally illegitate trades. Say an apple tree for a Howie. Clearly that person is trying to cheat another players.

    I have accidentally traded something the other way than I intended. I wasn't trying to get something for nothing, fortunately, so I didn't loose that much.

    Why encourage players trying to cheat one another. This is basically a cooperative game. There should be a pentalty and loosing a ticket seems like a reasonable penalty.

    Frankly it gives me a bad taste to see just how many players are perfectly happy to try to take advantage of other players. I'd like to leave that to my real life, and not see it in this kind of a game. There are so many players that have actually helped me build a better farm, through advice or actually gifting me something, it is ashame that players are involved in this kind of gamesmanship. Shame on you those of you doing this, you bring the enjoyment of the game down for many of us.

    Plus Bigpoint would make more money if it is not refundable, so it seems like a no-brainer.

    3. Make it more clear what you are getting and what you are giving. When you do the confirmation get a picture of what you are giving and what you are giving rather than just the words. I try to be careful, but I do make a mistake occasionally. The extent of gamesmanship on the forum makes it clear just how many players occationally make an error.
     
  2. squigglegiggle

    squigglegiggle Count Count

    I don't think it's a case of trying to cheat others.

    A lot of low level players are looking for items that will help them improve. Sometimes all they have to offer is a spare apple tree or a yellow chicken coop. It's just like the real world - $100 is a lot to the homeless, but a grain of sand to a millionaire. What they offer for a Howie donut might be trash to you, but to them it is their most valuable item - or all they have spare to trade. You can't blame them for at least trying. Those people aren't trying to cheat you - they are simply offering what they can offer in the hopes of getting something they need in return.

    You'd be surprised the number of times (even in this latest gift and trade) where I've been genuinely concerned that people would judge me for offering what is, in my inventory, my most valuable item in the hopes of getting something I really need, not knowing whether people would think their item was worth three times as much as what I was offering as an exchange - even going so far as to add multiples of a stable upgrade in the hopes that offering more than one would make my offer more valuable. Because here's the thing - people who already have that valuable item you need, are probably in a position where what you have to offer is worth little to them. That's why so few trades go through and why it's so hard to find a decent trade - not because of the volume, but because if you have those good items, your farm is probably more developed than those who don't, and so their valuable items are standard to you.

    It also might be that they do have something worthwhile, but offered it elsewhere. For example, I offered two red yak upgrades for one item, and two red robin upgrades for another. But maybe the people who had item 1 were looking for the robins, and maybe the people who had item 2 were looking for the yaks. Just because the offer for the item you have to exchange isn't what you're looking for, doesn't mean that person doesn't have it - they just offered it elsewhere, because they can't read minds and don't know who wants what.

    If we're talking about bad tastes in the mouth, it upsets me that there are people out there judging others and forming opinions of their character because of what they're able to offer as a trade in an online farming game.

    Most offering an apple tree or a yellow stable upgrade know that they probably won't get a Howie donut for those items. And those who are in the privileged position of owning a Howie donut know better than to give away that item for something that, given their success in the game, would probably never be used on their farm. I'd implore you to find a farmer who actually fell for giving away a Howie donut for low-level items.

    What you're really suggesting is punishing low-level players for not having high-value items to offer in exchange for something they need. You're suggesting that only the prestigious, rich farmers should be allowed to participate in G&T. Only those with something you deem worthy of trading can take part, and if you don't have the good stuff, you should be penalised for getting involved and trying to improve your inventory.

    By extension, you're really saying that only paying players can take part. Because all those items that everyone wants, are primarily owned by paying players. I don't pay RL money to this game. I can't afford to. It means that I don't get to buy those packs that guarantee me the latest stable or tree. And I don't have endless stores of BBs to keep buying wonder trees and wonder stables until I chance upon the latest item - which rarely pops out of those gambles. I can't endlessly participate to the full extent in all events without paying, so I can't win those new items. I rely on paying players who gather more than they need, handing off their excess to people like me. But if the only people who are allowed, in your view, to participate without punishment are those who can offer a perfect like-for-like trade (which, by the way, is subjective), what you're really saying is only the players who pay and therefore have the good stuff can take part punishment-free.

    I have helped many a low-level player by gifting my excess stables and trees in exchange for nothing, or trading them for an item I have no use for. Because when you're in a privileged position of having more than you need, it is a nice thing to do to give away your excess to those who need it. Similarly, I have been on the receiving end of some wonderfully generous gifts and trades from other farmers who recognised that my need was greater than theirs, and it didn't matter if all they got was an XL peach upgrade in exchange for their red pens or the latest tree. It is because of these kind people, who gave me something for nothing, or who accepted a totally worthless gift in exchange, that my farm is where it is - and many other players will feel the same.

    You say this game is cooperative - but your suggestion excludes, divides by class, and ultimately removes the major form of cooperation from the game.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
  3. Jazac

    Jazac Forum Baron

    OK let me add my 2 cents worth..

    I used G&T to buy stuff yes... NEVER had it be more then one.. I never thought one can do that.. So with this note I am done as not heard of anything..Besides it goes with next one..But if this is true.. THEN NUMBER OF ITEMS NEEDS TO BE THERE. I agree.

    What one sells for... is NOT UP TO BP. Or the MODS.. you want to trade a apple tree for a rare item go for it..What you need and others want is 2 different things... That my friend you must know..If you do not want to get rid of a rare for a apple tree then DON'T DO IT. Find another offer or wait til next GT. Maybe by then you wont need it..

    I do not buy on ways to send, get, and give on GT.. All I have is what free.. And I am to a point where when Giving things away people may have to wait on me to get what I need to do so.

    Point is... you are here... WOW, maybe i missread... I am so good at that trust me..lol But point is... ask for things.. DONT worry about trading... If you cant get it for free.. then look at trading...If you don't like the offers then WAIT.

    You think it is a robbing game.. hey go for it... put up your robbing ad. What seems high to you.. and don't get me wrong.. if one knows better one may not jump on it... it all depends on the player.. So what if one sees you... Hey you want what I got? you get it with what I offer.. Don't like it.. get your item somewhere else.. Or talk to me and we can make a deal.. See this is not hard.. One likes to think it is.

    I also jump through both posts and hate posting cause I KNOW SOMEONE IS GONNA TELL ME THEY SAID THAT..It is what it is.. Like i said maybe i misread.. wont be the first time i jumped...lol I love yall..

    EDIT: @Lea2191 is it something we can make? If so IGM Please and I will make it for you. If I have the stuff to do so.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
    farmerlily22 likes this.
  4. nm56

    nm56 Forum Commissioner

    I don't like the idea about losing licenses when the trade doesn't go through. You shouldn't have to pay to list the trade -- only when it goes through. Not only to receive only a couple at a time but some players have purchased licenses with real money.

    I have previously requested that BP improve search functions so that I can skip apple trees, etc.

    Maybe BP could disallow trades on shop items that can be easily bought with a small CC amounts. With all the advantages that new players have now (compared to 10 years ago) they shouldn't need someone to give them these items to enjoy playing the game. CCs are available on the magic stalk CRs and the high prices in the market should make it able for new players to get enough to buy an apple tree or chicken coop.

    I like the idea of seeing the quantity that is being traded and also seeing what the EP Giver looks like without clicking on it.
     
    squigglegiggle and Jazac like this.
  5. -matselleste-

    -matselleste- Forum Great Master

    A lot of people put up really simple trades when they don't have any gift licenses left. Sometimes these are targeted to a specific person, and sometimes they are truly just generous gifts. I understand the OPs frustration in having to wade through what seems like a lot of dumb offers - but at the same time, I remember when G&T came around once a year or less, there was NO search function at all, and there was far more limitations on what could be traded. Most importantly - THIS IS A GAME. As said above, if you think a trade is absurd, then don't click on it. I saw one that seemed reasonable, but when I clicked on it, it was ten MM pens for one new tree. Yes, that's greedy - but if someone really wanted that item, enough to give up that much in return... it's called capitalism. It's called what the market will bear. It's called free enterprise.
     
    alpenliebe, squigglegiggle and Jazac like this.
  6. Lea2191D

    Lea2191D Forum Greenhorn

    I am going to respond to some of the criticism of the idea.
    1. If the best a beginner has to offer is an apple, plum, or walnut tree, that person doesn't even know what a Howie Donut is. There are not beginners doing this.

    In addition, the beginner is MORE likely to be cheated. A beginner can buy a whole lot of apple trees with just one harvest of an ice cream bean tree. No one should be making that trade. (This is an actual example of real trade on my market) A beginner doesn't know what is available for cc nearly as well as the advanced player. There are hundreds of trades offering something that can be bought with cc. The beginner is at a disadvantage, and it is the beginner, and children that are most likely to be cheated.

    2. "It's capitalism", no it's not.

    In Capitalism it is supposed to be a mutual beneficial transaction.
    There no way trading an apple tree for a high value tree is mutually beneficial, and that means someone is getting cheated.

    It's too easy to mess up what you are buying and what you are selling. In capitalism, using the barter system, I am NEVER going to accidentally take away that which I am trying to get rid of, NEVER. I wanted a Candle tree in exchange for a pink Crow. I ended up giving away accidentally one of my Candle trees and got back a Pink crow by mistake. I have ton of pink crows. In any case, it was my mistake, but this kind of mistake can too easily happen.

    3. I never said players should be bared from making certain trades. Players are free to make whatever trades they want, and I am free to ask Bigpoint to please create a policy to clean up the process


    4. I want this changed because I can't find legitimate trades in all the chaos. My neighbor has complained about it too: "Gift and trade used to be fun, but now everybody just wants something for nothing. It just isn't fun anymore".

    Which leads to me another suggestion for BIGPOINT: Please display the entire page without scrolling. I have a medical problem that makes the current system very hard and painful to use.

    I don't want the free trades to stop, I just want it to cost something when someone posts a potential trade, and Bigpoint to stop refunding the ticket when the trade does not go through. If someone looses trade tickets for trades that don't go through, there will be less available when they find a trade they want. If someone is giving something away through the trade option rather than the gift option, then the trade goes through and they loose the ticket anyway. Hence, the argument that gifting can be done this way is does not apply.
     
  7. -matselleste-

    -matselleste- Forum Great Master

    Respectfully, if I want to give away a high-level item because it makes me feel good to do something nice for someone then that qualifies as capitalism. The gain here would be something intangible, but that still counts. I'm not saying there aren't people who take advantage of new players. but I know personally of a lot of people who have set these things up to give things away because they had trade tickets but no gift tickets. I do, however, completely support your idea of no scrolling and I will do one better and say please have more atoms visible per page.
     
  8. nm56

    nm56 Forum Commissioner

    fWhen I am feeling generous I usually just pick one of my low level neighbors and send it to them along with a message wishing them well in the game.

    I don't have the good luck of having any of my farms on the same market to trade with each other (by directing a trade at them) so the only way I can give them something is to use a "gift" license. I actually thought BP tried to prevent this when they set up the markets and trade listings. I guess if you used different emails you could slip past them but this still does not (in my opinion) account for the large amount of these types of trades listed. Maybe some are to take advantage of newer players but I think some are just made to junk up the listing (which would be a good reason to take away the license for the listing,

    There are times during GT that I just scroll through looking at what is being offered which is why I don't like seeing the low level trades (just too many).

    I would prefer:
    No scrolling and a longer page.
    Having search changed so that I could filter search "anthill" and see the player offers without seeing the player searches for it. Player searches only helps me in determining what my offer would be but I don't need to see it everytime.
    Keeping my licenses until a trade is made.
    Disallowing low CC trades (would cut down on listing and possibly benefit newer players).

    Some of these have been suggested in past so I don't know if anything will change.
     
    honeybea and Jazac like this.
  9. Jazac

    Jazac Forum Baron

    I too made that mistake of looking at the offers wrong. And instead of getting what I wanted it was a total different offer..lol

    I also agree with the some offers taking up what should not be there.. Maybe they can go by a value system? With maybe a point difference of maybe 50 points.. I too think if this is done most offers will be removed cause of it.Also yes. If you can list it..that license needs to be used.Had there not be a lot of junk offers I would disagree with this..Cause good offers shouldn't lose the license. If BP can use the value of the item (which each item in game has) Then maybe they won't have to force us to lose a license to list it. Just a thought.

    And limit the items to maybe 3 max per offer.. I never knew that could be done. I always thought it was 1 item for 1 item.. Now I really wonder if a have been scammed. But it be my fault, for yes, not looking at it.
     
  10. squigglegiggle

    squigglegiggle Count Count

    Respectfully, you aren't an authority on what other players do or don't know about. Maybe they have a friend who plays the game and told them what a HD is. The Magical Glade and Tree of Wisdom are available from level 14. With how fast you can get to that point, many players will have little more than the basic trees before they can access the Tree, see the Howie Donut rune and do some research on the forum to find out just what that is. They probably also see everyone else trying to get the Howie Donut and figure it's an item to aim for. And whilst they may have more valuable items in their possession, they probably don't have those in enough volume to give away excess. All they have a surplus of is the basics.

    This game isn't designed to baby players until they can stand on their own two feet. If the system of G&T confuses new players and they end up not making a good trade, well, they learn for next time. If that player wants to give away a single good tree for a bunch of CC-purchased basic trees, they have that right. It isn't for you to decide which trades are worthwhile and which are not.

    Beginner players are just as likely to spend all their BBs on wonder trees that won't produce anything valuable. The entire point of being a beginner is that sometimes you make costly mistakes. The game would become a horror if we took out every risky feature in order to prevent beginners from doing silly things.

    Again, this isn't for you to decide. Take player A. Player A, for their own purposes and motivations, wants a bunch of apple trees. But player A has absolutely no money. They do, however, have a spare ice cream bean tree.

    Player A has two options. They can either work hard to build up their supply of CCs, buy their dozens of apple trees and keep their spare ice cream bean tree in the inventory where it will gather dust. Or, alternatively, they can give their ice cream bean tree to someone who needs it and will get good use out of it, and in exchange receive those apple trees they were looking for without having to earn or spend a dime.

    Is this scenario likely rare? Yes. But it could exist, and based on what I've seen on the forum, is a legitimate hypothetical. Now, as I said, this is a very unlikely scenario, but it is a totally valid and possible one, and players in this position should be allowed to make the trades they want, irrespective of whether or not you personally deem it reasonable. You say someone in this position is getting cheated, and maybe on face value one person is trading high value for something much less valuable EV-wise, but it is up to the players involved in the trade, not you or BP, to determine what the true value of that trade is. A bunch of apple trees for an ice cream bean tree might not be worth it to you, or equivalent in value based on EV, but if it is a worthy trade to each player involved, then no one has been cheated.

    Scenario 2. Player A is looking for an ice cream bean tree. They see Player B offering one in exchange for 3 XXL apple trees. Player A doesn't have have 3 XXL apple trees, nor do they have have 75 BBs to buy them. But they see Player C offering 3 XXL apple trees in exchange for an ambarella tree. Player A has a spare ambarella tree. Clearly, 3 XXL apple trees are not worth the same as an ambarella; they are far less valuable. But Player A makes the trade with Player C, giving up their spare ambarella and gaining 3 XXL apple trees in return. They then trade these 3 XXL apple trees for the ice cream bean tree offered by Player B. The initial trade with player C, to get the XXL apple trees, was not an equivalent trade. But it was a stepping stone which allowed them to get their ice cream bean tree from Player B. This is also a common scenario. Essentially they have traded an ambarella for an ice cream bean tree (a reasonable equivalent trade), but not directly. You need to allow these unequal trades in order to facilitate the equal ones.

    In any trade, it is up to the players involved to determine whether they are benefitting from the trade. Now, maybe in the future a low-level player will realise the trade was not a good one, but at that particular moment in time, they will feel they have benefitted from the trade they entered into, and that is all that matters. If, at the time of the trade, they feel they have gained from it.

    You said they should not receive their licenses back. That they should be punished, essentially, for listing a trade that no one wants. But I pose this to you.

    Either you want every trade which does not go through to be punished by loss of licenses, or you specifically want unequal trades to be punished with loss of licenses (but others can get them back if the trade is reasonable). Obviously the latter would never work, because who are you or anyone but the players involved to decide what is a reasonable trade worthy of receiving licenses back. So let me pose an example for the former.

    You list a pink duck in exchange for a pink chicken. Equal enough, right? But let's say the only people with the pink chicken you want, are looking for a pink rabbit or a pink chicken egg workshop. They don't want your pink duck. They have enough. They aren't going to trade. So the trade doesn't go through. This is an extraordinarily common situation, because even the most equivalent of trades rely on the person who has the desired item, wanting what is offered in exchange. It is extremely specific, and is why most people prefer to trade via the gift function and written promise. Because you rely on two people's wants and offers matching up.

    Under your system, this failed trade would be punished with loss of licenses. In trying to stamp out these "worthless" trades, you would punish all players who attempt, but fail, to make equivalent swaps. And as people start to lose their licenses for offering totally equivalent swaps that didn't work for anyone, they will start giving up on trading entirely. The trade function will die. All so we could stop a few people from making trades you don't like, and protect people from being "cheated" out of items they choose to trade.

    You are right, you are free to ask BP to make whatever changes you'd like. But it doesn't exempt you from criticism of those suggestions when they are unreasonable, unfeasible, prejudiced or inappropriate.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
    alpenliebe likes this.